Article:		Google's Gaffe
Subject:		POST-ing without variables
Date:		2002-04-25 21:09:52
From:		Sonam Chauhan
Sidetracking a wee bit: I don't think its currently possible to POST a document from a *web* page so that the document itself comprises the body of the POST, is it? (i.e. POST using no CGI "var=value" variables). If not, its good if W3C comes up with an extension to HTML to allow *browsers* to do variable-less posting. Something like the following syntax could be used to post this XML document : "<test/>" from a web form. -- <form action="a.pl" method="post" SUBMETHOD="no-variables" CONTENT-TYPE="text/xml" DOCUMENT="<test/>"> -- This would enable SOAP queries to be made from webpages (thus giving SOAP the same rich hyperlinking abilities that GET has) As regards your article Paul - its great, the way you've explained the technologies. I didn't "get" SOAP earlier. Now that I get it, I don't like its horrible verbosity. However I would prefer using XML to post queries rather than using GET and CGI variables though. Also I think you've may have overestimated the computational expense. CGI variables have to be parsed the same way as XML is. With most webservers moving XML (and SOAP?) parsers into the core of the webserver engine, this will be less of a computational expense.

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• POST-ing without variables
  2002-04-26 16:20:29 Paul Prescod
  
  "This would enable SOAP queries to be made from webpages (thus giving SOAP the same rich hyperlinking abilities that GET has)"

  
  XForms allows HTML to do an XML POST but that doesn't bring SOAP any closer to HTTP GET's hyperlinking capabilities. The virtue of HTTP is that *anywhere you can put a URI* (, <img src>, XInclude, XBase, XPath/XPointer/XSLT) you can put an HTTP-URI and use GET to retrieve it. XForms cannot give that capability to SOAP.

  
  "As regards your article Paul - its great, the way you've explained the technologies. I didn't "get" SOAP earlier. Now that I get it, I don't like its horrible verbosity. However I would prefer using XML to post queries rather than using GET and CGI variables though."

  
  Do you have a technical argument for why that is???

  
  "Also I think you've may have overestimated the computational expense. CGI variables have to be parsed the same way as XML is. With most webservers moving XML (and SOAP?) parsers into the core of the webserver engine, this will be less of a computational expense."

  
  It will always be expensive to base-64 encode a megabyte document.
  
  
  

  • *XML* POST-ing without variables (a.k.a. XML input/ XML output)
    2002-05-13 20:39:41 Sonam Chauhan
    
    Paul: "XForms allows HTML to do an XML POST but that doesn't bring SOAP any closer to HTTP GET's hyperlinking capabilities."

    
    Thanks for the reference to XForms... I hope it finds implementation support in the major browsers.

    
    Note I'm not pushing SOAP. I just prefer XML both as the input to a POST, as well as the output.

    
    SC: "I didn't "get" SOAP earlier. Now that I get it, I don't like its horrible verbosity. However I would prefer using XML to post queries rather than using GET and CGI variables though."
    ...
    Paul: "Do you have a technical argument for why that is???"

    
    Yes. (1) a schema may be used to validate input. (2) the self documenting nature of XML.

    
    There's no point in saving 10% or 15% in the size of a HTTP transaction and giving up much more in clarity and ease of use. Having both the data and the method call document itself in plain text is a very valuable development help. Think of the EDI v/s XML tussle.

    
    
    SC: "Also I think you've may have overestimated the computational expense. CGI variables have to be parsed the same way as XML is. With most webservers moving XML (and SOAP?) parsers into the core of the webserver engine, this will be less of a computational expense."
    ...
    Paul: "It will always be expensive to base-64 encode a megabyte document."

    
    Eh? :)
    What about URL-encoding that same document?

    
    An HTML editor, may be able to easily edit and even validate an XML document request embedded as part of a web page.

    
    On a side note, i think SOAP documents are very complex. I guess the complexity is required for fulfilling some of its aims, but if we keep standards simple, there is a better chance that they will be adopted.