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Article:
 The Atom API
Subject: ManilaRPC
Date: 2003-10-15 18:48:42
From: Dave Winer

Mark left out ManilaRPC which probably predates all the protocols. Since his story hinges on everything having started with Live Journal this omission is pretty glaring. Also Mark knows about it, he did Python interface for ManilaRPC.


The rest of the article is as biased as one would expect from a designer of the Atom API. As usual O'Reilly allows people to write supposedly objective articles without disclaiming conflicts of interest.


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  • ManilaRPC
    2003-10-16 09:38:14 Kendall Clark

    For the record, the first thing XML.com published about Atom, before it was called Atom, was a (very opinionated) column I did in which I criticized some aspects of Atom. XML.com has not given the Atom effort a free pass by any stretch. Any suggestion to the contrary is simply wrong.


    >Since his story hinges on everything having >started with Live Journal this omission is pretty >glaring.


    No, not really. The piece doesn't in any way "hinge" on starting with Live Journal. That's where Pilgrim started, but so what? The current Userland contributions to this area were well and fairly reviewed in the piece. I suspect that the criticisms Pilgrim offered of all the things which preceded Atom were points that have been discussed in various communities endlessly. The column very nicely summarizes these issues in one place, but that's hardly the meat of the column.


    >Also Mark knows about it, he did Python interface >for ManilaRPC.


    Right, which suggests that he may probably had a good reason to leave it out, focusing on the Metaweblog API instead. There are any number of good reasons why it's a sensible thing to leave out.


    It seems to me that in order to sustain this claim -- which is itself quite unfriendly and hostile -- of bias, it has to be shown that there are only biased reasons for not discussing Manila RPC, and, further, that Pilgrim was motivated by these biased reasons. That's an awfully big burden. I'm not going to hold my breath.


    >The rest of the article is as biased as one would >expect from a designer of the Atom API.


    Actually, Pilgrim has implemented this API and been mostly involved with the Atom serialization format -- well, if his own reportage of his involvement is to be trusted, and I don't see any reason that it shouldn't be.


    >As usual O'Reilly allows people to write >supposedly objective articles without disclaiming >conflicts of interest.


    But that's what you are for, Dave! You are always "disclaiming our conflicts of interest" for us. :>


    I should state my own so-called "conflicts of interest": O'Reilly pays me, together with Edd Dumbill, to find and publish technically interesting content. I asked Mark Pilgrim to be an XML.com columnist, and I've edited all of his XML.com columns, including this one. I can't see any mistatements of fact or analysis in it, or I would have corrected them.


    But, wait, it gets worse! Mark and I have literally conspired together to publish critical analyses of XML-related things, including the Atom stuff. Just last night at dinner we deepened our conspiracy: I asked Mark if he'd be interested in working on some new areas in his future columns, and together we conspired to bring a new columnist to XML.com, about which more in coming weeks.


    So, you see, there is a conspiracy, the goal of which is to publish interesting material, based on objective analysis of technical merit, at XML.com.


    If that is the charge, we are *totally* guilty.




    • ManilaRPC
      2003-10-16 15:31:30 Matthew Haughey

      >Just last night at dinner we deepened our conspiracy


      Waitaminute...you guys had dinner to discuss XML issues and I wasn't invited!?!?!

  • ManilaRPC
    2003-10-16 03:57:31 Edd Dumbill

    Dave,


    Whatever gave you the idea articles were objective? Especially with columnists I encourage the expression of opinions in order to further debate and discussion.


    However, I also very much welcome correction to factual errors, and I'm glad you've taken the time to provide your feedback.


    -- Edd


    • ManilaRPC
      2003-10-16 05:00:30 Dave Winer

      As a reader I want to know what conflicts of interest authors have. That way I know how much of what I'm reading is an ad, and how much of it is disinterested opinion. Anyway thanks for the data, I'm not going to tell you how to run your pub, but I have less respect for it now, and I'll take it less seriously.

      • Interests
        2003-10-20 05:26:03 Danny Ayers

        The Atom project is open to all, so everyone that contributes could be said to be one of its developers.


        I note several contributions on the atom-syntax mailing list and even a page on the Wiki for a certain Dave Winer (http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/DaveWiner). If this is the same person as is posting here, perhaps they'd like to declare an interest too...


        btw, Mark - great piece.


      • ManilaRPC
        2003-10-16 07:55:23 Yoz Grahame

        As a reader of both the piece and your comment, I'd like to know if you have any criticisms of the piece beyond accusations of bias. Sure, Mark states negative opinions of the MetaWeblog API, but he backs those up with clearly-stated reasons and facts.


        All you've said in response is that it's unfair that he doesn't mention that he's an Atom API developer, despite the fact that it's clearly an advocacy piece. Oh, and that he's a ManilaRPC developer, so he obviously knows what he's talking about.


        I don't care about political squabbles. I want to know which API I should be developing for, and Mark has made a an informative and convincing case for Atom, based entirely on its technical merits as compared to the other APIs in the field. If you can make arguments against the technical analyses in the piece without dragging politics into them, please do so. Otherwise, I'll assume you have none.

      • ManilaRPC
        2003-10-16 07:46:08 Adam Backstrom

        Dave,


        As Chairman and Founder of UserLand Software (publisher of Manila), you should have noted your conflict of interest at the beginning of your comment. To supply a seemingly objective comment without this disclaimer is a pretty glaring omission.


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