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Article:
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SVG: A Sure Bet
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| Subject: |
Anyone can create Flash files |
| Date: |
2003-07-16 20:49:57 |
| From: |
Mike Chambers |
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>Today Adobe software cannot natively write Flash code because Macromedia is a competitor.
???
Adobe makes a number of products that creates Flash files. Including LiveMotion and Illustrator.
In fact, there are quite a few tools that output, or read Flash files.
SWFtools
http://www.swftools.com/
lists over 130.
mike chambers
mesh@macromedia.com
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- Anyone can create Flash files
2003-07-18 07:15:02 Paul Prescod
[Reply]
So I admitted I was wrong about Adobe. I'm willing to learn. What Microsoft tools read and write SWF? We know that they have announced a product that reads and writes SVG.
- Anyone can create Flash files
2003-07-17 18:35:37 Paul Prescod
[Reply]
You are right. I am wrong. I thought that it was necessary to use Macromedia's Flash Writer to get Flash files out of Illustrator but now I know that Illustrator also has native support. I am sorry for misrepresenting the situation.
I did not claim that Macromedia was the only company that can generate Flash files. I did claim that any company that does generate Flash files is putting some control of their destiny in Macromedia's hands. If I were Adobe I would vastly prefer to put my faith in the W3C where they have representatives and some degree of control (along with the rest of the community) rather than depending on the goodwill of Macromedia. I suspect that is why they are pouring so much effort into SVG.
And by the way, SVG is licensed in a way that allows competition in all aspects of authoring and delivery but the Flash license is specifically worded to sheild Macromedia from competition. "Pursuant to the terms and conditions of this License, you are granted a nonexclusive license to use the Specification for the sole purposes of developing Products that output SWF." What if I wanted to use the specification to develop a product that did not output SWF...e.g. a competitive Flash reader?
- Anyone can create Flash files
2003-07-19 09:51:04 cole batten
[Reply]
you:
" What if I wanted to use the specification to develop a product that did not output SWF...e.g. a competitive Flash reader?"
me:
"there are. one comes to mind http://www.swfxxl.com/ . the developer of which spoke at flash forward sf this year and called the normal flash player (but apologized in advance first) 'stupid' when it comes to fullscreen. thats why swfxxl exists. those wacky germans."
you:
"If I were Adobe I would vastly prefer to put my faith in the W3C where they have representatives and some degree of control (along with the rest of the community) rather than depending on the goodwill of Macromedia. I suspect that is why they are pouring so much effort into SVG."
me:
"does effort in this case equal $$$ to the w3c? also is the 'svg plugin', 'svg player, 'svg support' going to be a huge file size too like it is for the pc/mac/*nix? is that why the w3c likes that too? svg does have its place indeed. as icons supported by the os's gui."
- Anyone can create Flash files
2003-07-19 10:34:58 Paul Prescod
[Reply]
I asked: "What if I wanted to use the specification to develop a product that did not output SWF...e.g. a competitive Flash reader?"
Cole responded with an example: "swfxx".
But that doesn't answer my question. Am I supposed to presume that because a bunch of "wacky Germans" have either negotiated a special license with Adobe or violated the official Adobe license that I am also free to do so? Perhaps Adobe will allow me to succeed as long as I take no market share away from their plugin and then slap a lawsuit on me when I do. If you work for a corporation with corporate counsel, ask him if the fact that a German company is doing something against the license proves that it is safe for your company to do so.
You ask: "does effort in this case equal $$$ to the w3c?
Of course Adobe plays its W3C membership fees as all other W3C members do. But some of the people influencing the specification are invited experts who do not pay any fees.
also is the 'svg plugin', 'svg player, 'svg support' going to be a huge file size too like it is for the pc/mac/*nix?
On a very ordinary internet connection I downloaded the SVG plugin in less than a minute. But the vast majority of people who have the SVG plugin got it when they downloaded Acrobat Reader and surely did not notice the extra time.
is that why the w3c likes that too?
The W3C likes it because it is an open standard controlled by a community of implementors and users.
svg does have its place indeed. as icons supported by the os's gui
The hundreds of people at the SVG conference successfully using it for mission-critical business data would beg to differ with you. (e.g. the US Federal Reserve). Oh and by the way, a Nokia representative confirmed that they are working on an SVG implementation for their cell phones.
- woah there.
2003-07-19 12:22:05 cole batten
[Reply]
Ok so the full version (recommended download from adobe) of acrobat reader
for pc is 15.4MB and the smaller version is 8.7MB. Even larger for osx.
'On a very ordinary internet connection I downloaded the SVG plugin in less
than a minute.'
That's pretty sweet that you can download a minimum of 2.5MB in less than a
minute on a 'very ordinary internet connection'.
'But the vast majority of people who have the SVG plugin got it when they
downloaded Acrobat Reader and surely did not notice the extra time.'
I'm sure your right. They are already downloading 15MB or more so who cares!
I want acrotray to run all the time! Sure!
'Oh and by the way, a Nokia representative confirmed that they are working
on an SVG implementation for their cell phones.'
Ok so that's cool but on the Nokia 9210i and 9290 flash is already
supported. Less than 500k too.
- woah there.
2003-07-19 14:30:38 Paul Prescod
[Reply]
Ok so the full version (recommended download from adobe) of acrobat reader for pc is 15.4MB and the smaller version is 8.7MB. Even larger for osx.
It is a demonstrable fact that people don't mind downloading the Acrobat reader and that is several times larger than the SVG Viewer. A competitive technology could be 500 bytes and if nobody cares nobody cares. My observation is that nobody cares: PDF is quite successful.
That's pretty sweet that you can download a minimum of 2.5MB in less than a
minute on a 'very ordinary internet connection'.
What can I say. I'm using a standard cable modem at home. These are measured in megabits per second. I'm also routing over Wi-fi which can only add latency.
Ok so that's cool but on the Nokia 9210i and 9290 flash is already supported. Less than 500k too.
The 9210 and 9290 are not phones. They are connected PDAs. Nokia is implementing SVG on _phones_. In particular, on the smartphones with the cameras on them. Probably not the 6600 but I would guess the next phone after that (the Nokia guy wasn't allowed to pre-announce which phone). And it isn't going to be a downloadable. It is built into the operating system and browser that comes with the phone. By the way, 500K is huge for a phone. SVG has multiple conformance levels (SVG Tiny, Basic, etc.) so it will go much smaller than that when necessary (but of course you lose features like opacity and scripting).
- woah there.
2003-07-19 17:30:18 cole batten
[Reply]
oh and also:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/contribute/productinfo/flashpaper/
- woah there.
2003-07-20 12:55:41 Paul Prescod
[Reply]
Flashpaper is the Flash equivalent of SVG's SVGMaker. What does it have to do with putting one or the other _inside_ of printers? It is just another Macromedia product that generates Flash. I don't see the relevance.
- woah there.
2003-07-19 16:20:42 cole batten
[Reply]
i'll post more later but for now mr. nielsen has some words:
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20030714.html
- woah there.
2003-07-20 12:57:20 Paul Prescod
[Reply]
I'm not going to get into an argument about the virtues of PDF. I didn't say anything good or bad about PDF. It is popular and many people download the Acrobat reader. The SVG viewer will probably be bundled with it as it has been in the past. If these are both true then many people will have the SVG viewer. That's the only thing about PDF that is of interest to me as an SVG advocate.
- Anyone can create Flash files
2003-07-17 20:00:02 Jason Cunilffe
[Reply]
Here's an intreresting toolkit I just heard about which reflects the hybrid needs and environment of vector grahics users and developers
"""Kinesis Software announces the release of it's latest product: KineticFusion, a great advance in rich graphical content management. KineticFusion is the perfect fusion of new technologies for the Web. For the first time, SWF files, the native format for Macromedia® Flash™ can be fully represented in a new XML vocabulary, Rich Vector Markup Language, or RVML. Our processing engine can decompile SWF to RVML and compile RVML back into native SWF format. All resources, whether ActionScript, sound, video, or images can be extracted and inserted, SWF files can be viewed and manipulated using external development tools, versioned, stored, or translated to SVG allowing users to author SVG applications using any Flash™ authoring environment.
Written in Java, KineticFusion allows you to use pure XML technologies to create dynamic interactive animations viewable on any browser that support the Flash™ plugin. Flash™ authoring tools can be used to create interfaces that can then be translated to SVG.
The KineticFusion product and available documentation are made available for free download under a Freeware license."""
http://www.kinesissoftware.com/index.html
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